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Old 03-20-2013, 04:44 PM   #16
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Insulation (floor underneath crawlspace)


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Originally Posted by asinsulation View Post
yes, but the reason you have a temperature difference is because you have stopped the circulation into the crawlspace. which is fine for now. just that it will leave alot of potential for moisture issues in the future, and drying out your floors. same principle as somebody who insulates both the attic floor and the roof rafters in the attic.
So if I didn't stop the air ciculation in my crawl there wouldn't be a temp difference? Wouldn't it be colder had I not and the vents were open? I also put a dehumidifer down there to be safe with the moisture.

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Old 03-21-2013, 12:25 AM   #17
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Insulation (floor underneath crawlspace)


To condition a crawlspace requires insulating AND ventilating/changing the air; http://www2.iccsafe.org/cs/committee...E_06_64_07.pdf


http://www.buildingscience.com/docum...ance-and-codes

If the radon and termites are allowed for....

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Old 03-21-2013, 05:50 AM   #18
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Insulation (floor underneath crawlspace)


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To condition a crawlspace requires insulating AND ventilating/changing the air; http://www2.iccsafe.org/cs/committee...E_06_64_07.pdf


http://www.buildingscience.com/docum...ance-and-codes

If the radon and termites are allowed for....

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I once read an article it was a few years ago I'll try and dig it up where it explained the vents in a crawlspace were not good and a technology implemented on houses year ago but have since changed. It basically said there was so real beneifit to them. I'll do my best to find this article and share..

I also have my ducts going through my crawl so my crawl gets some leakage to condition the air.
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Old 03-21-2013, 09:32 AM   #19
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Insulation (floor underneath crawlspace)


venting is not good in some regions. trust me, here in new jersey, especially in central/south jersey and along the shore, it is highly recommended, and it does indeed work, as long as it is properly done just like anything else.
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Old 03-21-2013, 09:35 AM   #20
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venting is not good in some regions. trust me, here in new jersey, especially in central/south jersey and along the shore, it is highly recommended, and it does indeed work, as long as it is properly done just like anything else.
I hear you asinsulation and let me tell you I really appreciate all your info. This is the article I mostly followed along with some others great articles saying it was better to close em up so I got convinced to seal up my space. I am sure either way will work fine if you follow proper instructions for each environment. Thanks again!


http://www.buildingscience.com/docum...ace-insulation
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Old 03-21-2013, 12:58 PM   #21
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Insulation (floor underneath crawlspace)


From your link;

"Consult the resources listed below for specific guidance.
In cold climates or in very low-energy buildings, installing insulation below the ground cover is recommended. When a slab is poured over the ground in this application the temperature and humidity conditions in the crawlspace become very stable and essentially identical to the interior.
To remove any small incidental sources of moisture, it is important thatsome air circulate from the living space into the crawlspace.It is for this reason the approach is called a “conditioned crawlspace” not a “unvented crawlspace.” Flows of 50 cfm per 1000 sf when the mechanical system operates are recommended. From; http://www.buildingscience.com/docum...ace-insulation

We are not here to argue with you but help you and others build correctly and to minimum safety code. In NJ, you are under the IBC 2009; http://www.reedconstructiondata.com/...es/new-jersey/

From your prescriptive code on your situation;

"1. Where warranted by climatic conditions, ventilation openings to the outdoors are not required if ventilation openings to the interior are provided.

2. The total area of ventilation openings is permitted to be reduced to 1/1,500 of the under-floor area where the ground surface is covered with a Class I vapor retarder material and the required openings are placed so as to provide cross ventilation of the space. The installation of operable louvers shall not be prohibited.

3. Ventilation openings are not required where continuously operated mechanical ventilation is provided at a rate of 1.0 cubic foot per minute (cfm) for each 50 square feet (1.02 L/s for each 10 m2) of crawl space floor area and the ground surface is covered with a Class I vapor retarder." From: http://publicecodes.cyberregs.com/ic..._12_par008.htm

The duct leakage alone may be enough to provide the supply (if really bad), but you need to figure the cfm's supplied, page #6 here, 5 different ways to condition your crawl; http://www.buildingscience.com/docum...ance-and-codes check with your local AHJ.

You may have read this; http://dirt-crawl-spaces.com/crawlspace-venting.html

They give one some possible ways to condition a crawlspace on another page, probably posted in 2007 as the code links in right hand corner are no longer valid;

"There are other possibilities for conditioning your crawl space. For example, a fan blowing 30-40 cubic feet per minute of air from upstairs (conditioned space) into the crawl space provides air exchange and drying, while pressurizing the crawl space. To get the air back upstairs, install several transfer grilles in the floor. This is a good approach if the crawl space is clean, but if it's moldy, you'll need a different approach.
There is way to both condition the crawl space and ventilate the entire house in line with the new ASHRAE 62.2 ventilation standard. That is to install a fan to continuously exhaust air out of the crawl space to the outside and install two or more transfer grilles in the floor so new conditioned air can enter the crawl space from up stairs.
The new ventilation standard says to add fresh air to the building envelope at the rate of .01 cfm per square foot of the house and 7.5 cfm per occupant. The number of occupants is defined as the number of bedrooms plus one. Therefore a 2000 square-foot home (2000 x .01 = 20 cfm) with three bedrooms (3 + 1 x 7.5 = 30 cfm) will need a 50 cfm fan."


Gary
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Last edited by Gary in WA; 03-21-2013 at 02:07 PM. Reason: text form.
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Old 03-21-2013, 01:08 PM   #22
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Think were beating a dead horse here, thanks for the info. As I mentioned I have leakage from my ducts going through my crawl space. Thanks for the great "Bolded" info
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Old 03-21-2013, 02:16 PM   #23
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It did look silly, fixed it, sorry... lol. Point is, without anywhere for the air supply to exhaust to, it will rise and deposit moisture on the framing if the temp differences are great enough. Vented crawls are radiation coupled at the joists/ground; http://www.buildingscience.com/docum...n-crawlspaces/

You will/may probably not have that, or if there is moisture present and you see the colder framing start to spot/discolor, (back in the corners of crawl due to insufficient air flow movement), add some exhaust vents to the house. If the leaks are great and the crawl is pressurized, but warm all over, you may be fine. "Tis a fine line..... hope it works for you.

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Old 03-21-2013, 02:26 PM   #24
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It did look silly, fixed it, sorry... lol. Point is, without anywhere for the air supply to exhaust to, it will rise and deposit moisture on the framing if the temp differences are great enough. Vented crawls are radiation coupled at the joists/ground; http://www.buildingscience.com/docum...n-crawlspaces/

You will/may probably not have that, or if there is moisture present and you see the colder framing start to spot/discolor, (back in the corners of crawl due to insufficient air flow movement), add some exhaust vents to the house. If the leaks are great and the crawl is pressurized, but warm all over, you may be fine. "Tis a fine line..... hope it works for you.

Gary
I basically followed what the articles mentioned. Only thing I did which might be over kill is add insulation between the joists. Numerous articles recommend to close the vents up and condition the crawl, which I did. I added a dehumidifier for moisture issues if there are any. I felt that the crawl temps were still too cool didn't want that seeping through the floors.
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Old 03-21-2013, 03:58 PM   #25
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Right. So you were on the right track (sealing the vents and conditioning the space is a legitimate option), but what we have been saying is that the duct leakage may not be adequate down there and your point about it being too cold is proof of that. You then went against the theory behind making it conditioned space by insulating the floor joists. You made it even LESS "conditioned" by doing that. Do you see what we are saying? Either treat it as conditioned space or don't. You can't combine the two methods without creating the potential for issues. Seal it in or seal it out.... The very first line of the bs.com link that you posted says to treat the CS as a "mini-basement". You would not rectify a cold basement by insulating the floor above it would you?
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Old 03-21-2013, 04:00 PM   #26
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Right. So you were on the right track (sealing the vents and conditioning the space is a legitimate option), but what we have been saying is that the duct leakage is not adequate down there and your point about it being too cold is proof of that. You then went against the theory behind making it conditioned space by insulating the floor joists. Do you see what we are saying? Either treat it as conditioned space or don't. You can't combine the two methods without creating the potential for issues.

Beating a dead horse, let's just let it go guys please. The duct leakage is for conditioning the air not to make it warm or cold like the rest of the house that's a waste of energy and $$.

I do see all your points based on going by the book, I really do and I appreciate it and hear it. Let's just let it go, I am not trying to argue, thanks so much guys!!!
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Old 03-21-2013, 04:16 PM   #27
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The duct leakage is for conditioning the air not to make it warm or cold like the rest of the house that's a waste of energy and $$.
I am over the crawlspace issue, as I think the point is there. But I have a serious question now. If conditioning the crawlspace does not mean heating it and cooling it along with the rest of the home, what exactly does it mean???
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Old 03-21-2013, 04:21 PM   #28
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I am over the crawlspace issue, as I think the point is there. But I have a serious question now. If conditioning the crawlspace does not mean heating it and cooling it along with the rest of the home, what exactly does it mean???
I thought I asked to let it go but since you want to continue it why don't you google it and find out for yourself?

Some of the articles I've read mentioned that leakage from your ducts can sometimes be enought to condition your crawl space DEPENDING ON HOW BIG IT IS. So that's the route I took, I personally felt the leakage from my ducts and felt the warm air and cool air leaking into the crawl

If if you makes you feel better you guys are so right I am so wrong, lol BTW if your over it why are you still asking questions?

Thanks all!
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Old 03-21-2013, 04:45 PM   #29
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cbaur, no argument here. Obviously I can't speak for all, but the primary reason that most of us who are professionals post here is simply to help folks out. At the end of the day you can certainly take our advice or leave it, but our only interest is providing you and the other DIY'ers that may view this thread with accurate information. It really is not about who is right or wrong, just making sure that other people get good advice.
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Old 03-21-2013, 04:50 PM   #30
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cbaur, no argument here. Obviously I can't speak for all, but the primary reason that most of us who are professionals post here is simply to help folks out. At the end of the day you can certainly take our advice or leave it, but our only interest is providing you and the other DIY'ers that may view this thread with accurate information. It really is not about who is right or wrong, just making sure that other people get good advice.
HomeSealed I couldn't agree with you more and I thank you for sharing the above. I can't tell you how many times I come to the forum and ask questions and get wonderful information and knowledge. Last think I want to do is rub people the wrong way. People on here have helped me a TON over the years as I am no professional. I just did some homework, on here and other place and went with what I thought was best. In my case little over kill and should have insulated the floors but it's done and so far no issues and good ROI.

My appologies if I came off defensive to you and others on here about the work I did. I spent hours upon hours down there and was maticulous. Again thank you for the information and I learned a thing or two. Thank you

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