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How to prevent kitchen water lines from freezing?

3K views 33 replies 7 participants last post by  enochian 
#1 ·
I have kitchen lines near a exterior wall / bay window which freeze every year.
 
#3 ·
One guideline for insulating pipes is to add lots of insulation between the pipe and the cold. And add no insulation between the pipe and their source of heat. Now, easy to say but not always easy to do, but the idea is to be sure your insulation is not preventing some heat to reach the pipes.

An example would be, pipes below a floor where you can build a "U" channel around them with the top open to the floor above.

The other important fix is to be sure you seal off any openings where cold air can seep in and around your pipes.

I would need pictures or more details on your problem area to be more exact in my advice.

Bud
 
#7 ·
Since those pipes already have a history of freezing every winter it's time to open up that ceiling and fix the problem. I've see pipes swell and bulge from repeated freezing and eventually burst. Then you will be replacing more than a section of the ceiling.

Being enclosed also means it wouldn't be a good place for a heat tape. Not that they aren't used in hidden places but access to them is desirable.

Might also consider installing an access panel to that area.

Bud
 
#17 ·
I suspect a major lack of insulation in that bay window base.

Often they are left open and just have the angled sides put on to cover the lower wall, and the pipes inside are left to be taken care of by the next crew, which are not there to insulate or build walls.

So they are left or only get just a very little protection.

Buy a SEE-SNAKE, and poke a small hole under the countertop in the wall, and look around in the wall to see what is there, or tear out a big hole under there and give it a look.


ED
 
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#18 ·
Being a window it will be contributing to the cold in that area. Also, the sill plate passes over the window and it is often is not well air sealed on top.

Remember, we are flying blind until we get some pictures. Can you take one from the inside of that window?

Bud
 
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#2 ·
Are they accessible?

Can you wrap them with a heat tape and insulation?

Maybe a heat lamp?

open the cabinet door to let some heat circulate?

let them drip?

ED
 
#5 ·
The basement is finished but do you have access to those pipes through the ceiling?

In most homes one of the leaky areas is where the house rests on the foundation. To make this worse, winter stack effect involves cold air pushing the lower leaks in a house and forcing the warmer air up and out the higher leaks. This infiltration of cold air would right where your pipes are located.

Bud
 
#10 ·
So the frozen pipes are actually behind the cabinets and not in the basement ceiling??
Pex is more resilient than copper but still not good to allow it to freeze.
There are different ways to bulid a bay window. Does the siding go straight down from the window on the outside or does it angle back to the side of the house above the foundation?

Very often the cavities created by a bay window are poorly insulated and leak a lot of cold air. If yours goes straight down, look under it to see how they sealed the bottom. A picture of the outside would help.

NJ is not that cold, I used to live in Brick and work in Holmdel. But cold air leaking in will freeze those pipes.

Bud
 
#12 ·
I agree they probably run in the basement ceiling, but the question is, are the frozen areas in the basement ceiling or behind the cabinets?

There are actually two path options for the pipes coming into that cabinet. They can come up straight through the bottom of the cabinet or they can come up inside the wall and then through the back of the cabinet.

Bud
Done for the night. Been climbing ladders all day, windy and cool. Getting too old for this stuff.
 
#13 ·
I used to live in the mtns in Colorado where it routinely got to minus 10,or 20 at night.

If you can't get to the pipes themselves to insulate them, you can do a few things:

If you have ready access to the supply shutoff valve, you can shut it off at night,, open all the faucets in the house, and drain the lines. Turn everything back on in the morning and you should be good to go.

Or, you can let the kitchen faucet drip both the hot and cold water just a few drops a minute..That little bit of water movement through the pipes "should" prevent all but extreme below zero freezing.

Or you can set your alarm and wake up every 2 hours or so and let the water run for a minute. The water coming up out of the ground should be well above freezing, so it will take a while for it to freeze up.
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#15 ·
That polygon cavity below the window is often poorly insulated, but it doesn't look easy to access from the outside. Below that is a basement vent (I assume). How is that incorporated into the finished basement? Is it hidden behind the wall or visiable like a window?

Bud
 
#19 ·
In Post #11, the OP said the water lines come up from the floor through the bottom of the cabinet, not the wall. The cold might be coming in at the sill plate/ rim joist. It only takes a tiny hole in the right spot to make the cold air like a tiny cold spear on the pipe. It make take a drywall patch in the basement to solve this. An IR camera at the ceiling below the sink and/or the outside wall below the window may show a cold spot.
 
#20 ·
That they did say.

But, I have seen the cold come 10 inches in under one of those that had no insulation in the wall, and freeze the pipes.

So I am still wondering if they insulated and sealed up good under there when it was installed.

We still don't know exactly what is freezing, the open line under the sink, or the hidden line in the floor, or right at the hole in the floor.

So at this moment we are trying to cover it all.


ED
 
#21 ·
That they did say.

But, I have seen the cold come 10 inches in under one of those that had no insulation in the wall, and freeze the pipes.

So I am still wondering if they insulated and sealed up good under there when it was installed.

We still don't know exactly what is freezing, the open line under the sink, or the hidden line in the floor, or right at the hole in the floor.

So at this moment we are trying to cover it all.


ED
This reminds me of the game show 20 questions. It's looking as if the OP has stumped the panel and won the game.:vs_mad:
 

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#23 ·
In #19 above , they have a good idea, get an IR camera and photo all around and under the cabinets, to see where there is heat loss.

Most PO CO'S have a program where they either do this for free or at a reduced cost to help homeowners save the expensive energy.

This will tell you exactly where you have a loss and where to concentrate your efforts to save money and stop the freezing of your pipes.



ED
 
#26 ·
During cold weather the natural flow of air is cold air in through the lower leaks pushing the warm air up and out the upper leaks. I use an infrared camera in my energy work and to enhance that flow to make it more visible we run our exhaust fan. In your case the bath fan and kitchen fan would do. BUT, cold air coming in even above that drywall will be very obvious using an IR camera. And they can be rented.

Bud
 
#29 ·
Well, #13 is a good list, but if those fail and a pipe freezes and breaks you will want to know where to make changes as you replace ALL of the drywall in the basement. At least you will get it right with the remodel.

Bud
 
#31 ·
Maybe through a hole in the cabinet back, then a drywall patch, and primer.

There are ways to do this with minimal damage.
Insulating an existing space is going to cause some damage, there is no way around it.

maybe a small quartz heater in the space next to the plumbing , over the cold months.


ED
 
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