Go Back   DIY Chatroom Home Improvement Forum > Home Improvement > Insulation

CLICK HERE AND JOIN OUR COMMUNITY TODAY...IT'S FREE!

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 11-30-2011, 09:53 PM   #1
Newbie
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 3
Rewards Points: 10
Question

Garage ceiling insulation


Hi all, first time poster! I did a few searches, but haven't found an answer to what I'm looking for, so hope y'all can be of assistance.

We have an older detached garage built in the 60's that we're wanting to convert into a gym/workshop space to use year-round. I've started off by insulating the walls and putting up drywall, but am at a bit of a loss as to what to do with the ceiling.

I want to keep the cathedral-style ceiling because I'm fairly tall and wouldn't be able to run on a treadmill or jump if we just closed off the rood - but the joists that run up the roof are 2x4's - meaning I can only fit R-13 faced insulation between them? I'm not 100% sure. I'd love to fit thicker stuff between them, but I know I'm not supposed to compress the insulation.

Anyone have any ideas on how to get the best bang for my buck insulation-wise up there? I was also planning on cutting some soffit vents into the side and running channels up behind the insulation to get some airflow in there - but with only 3 1/2"-4" to work with, that really limits the space I can use. Ideas?

Thanks all! Please direct me to any existing threads if there any on this, in case I missed them too!

MNHouseRepair is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2011, 09:19 AM   #2
Exterior Construction
 
Windows on Wash's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Washington DC Metro Area (VA, MD, DC)
Posts: 6,610
Rewards Points: 2,502
Default

Garage ceiling insulation


How are you going to be conditioning the space?

2x4 @ R-13 is about 1/3rd of what is required and even less of what is recommended.

http://www.ornl.gov/sci/roofs+walls/...on/ins_16.html

Windows on Wash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2011, 09:33 AM   #3
Newbie
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 3
Rewards Points: 10
Default

Garage ceiling insulation


Thanks for the reply! I realize that R-13 is too little, and I'm wondering what else I can do with the space I have? I really do want to keep it cathedral-style (I hope I'm using the right term there) because if we close off the ceiling, I'm pretty tall and won't be able to use the space as well as I'd like to.

If I use thicker insulation, and it sticks out from between the joists but is held in place by a plastic sheet that would be used as a vapor barrier - would that work? Does the insulation have to fit in between the joists?
MNHouseRepair is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2011, 09:40 AM   #4
Exterior Construction
 
Windows on Wash's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Washington DC Metro Area (VA, MD, DC)
Posts: 6,610
Rewards Points: 2,502
Default

Garage ceiling insulation


How are you heating the space and how do you want it finished?

You don't need to have a drywall ceiling but you will need a proper air barrier across that ceiling to prevent the warm air and diffusion of moisture to the underside of the roof deck.
Windows on Wash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2011, 10:08 AM   #5
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Hartfield VA
Posts: 26,987
Rewards Points: 3,090
Default

Garage ceiling insulation


The right way to do it would be add collar ties to act as a ceiling at a height you can live with, add 2 X 2's to the bottoms of the rafters, Add foam baffles from where the ridge vents will be to the point where the collar ties are.
Now you can add the R13 and not compress it and still have air flow. On the flat part of the ceiling you could go as thick as you want to.
You also going to need to add a ridge vent so the hot air can escape in the summer.
If you install insulation tight againt the sheathing it will super heat the shingles and shorten there life by about 5 years and the heat in the summer will transfure down into the room.
By having that flat raised ceiling you could add can lights or a ceiling fan.
joecaption is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2011, 12:09 PM   #6
Exterior Construction
 
Windows on Wash's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Washington DC Metro Area (VA, MD, DC)
Posts: 6,610
Rewards Points: 2,502
Default

Garage ceiling insulation


Quote:
Originally Posted by joecaption View Post
The right way to do it would be add collar ties to act as a ceiling at a height you can live with, add 2 X 2's to the bottoms of the rafters, Add foam baffles from where the ridge vents will be to the point where the collar ties are.
Now you can add the R13 and not compress it and still have air flow. On the flat part of the ceiling you could go as thick as you want to.
You also going to need to add a ridge vent so the hot air can escape in the summer.
If you install insulation tight againt the sheathing it will super heat the shingles and shorten there life by about 5 years and the heat in the summer will transfure down into the room.
By having that flat raised ceiling you could add can lights or a ceiling fan.
I would agree with about 95% of this with the exception that there are very slight differences in shingle temps and no evidence to indicate that unvented assemblies shorten shingle life.

Unvented assemblies that leak moisture with shorten roof life in general but there is nothing to indicate that shingle life suffers.
Windows on Wash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2011, 04:58 PM   #7
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Hartfield VA
Posts: 26,987
Rewards Points: 3,090
Default

Garage ceiling insulation


90 % of my work is remodeling in older houses 100 years old or older. Dozens of times I've seen where over the year DIYS have gone in there and tryed packing in the insulation to tight with no soffit vents, no baffles and no ridge vent, The paper on the insulation got so dry out and had gotten so hot it was falling apart, the 10 year old architural shingles would crumble in you hand and the granuals just filled the gutters.
http://www.gaf.com/Roofing/Residenti...r-signals.aspx
Notice how they show at least 4, differant pictures of what poor venting can do.

Last edited by joecaption; 12-01-2011 at 05:16 PM.
joecaption is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2011, 08:29 PM   #8
Exterior Construction
 
Windows on Wash's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Washington DC Metro Area (VA, MD, DC)
Posts: 6,610
Rewards Points: 2,502
Default

Garage ceiling insulation


Poor ventilation in a vented assembly and a hot/insulated roof deck are two totally different things.

Shingle manufacturers will forever attempt to blame the conditions and not the shingle.

There is no data to indicate that an insulated, sealed roof assembly shortens shingle life.

Most shingle cooling happens to the exterior and there are studies showing only a 5-7° difference in peak shingle temperature in Las Vegas.

Ventilation and moisture drive to the back of the shingle can kill it early.
Windows on Wash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2011, 06:20 PM   #9
Newbie
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 3
Rewards Points: 10
Default

Garage ceiling insulation


Hi all, thanks for all your help with this. I'll most likely go the route of adding collar ties to set a higher ceiling height, and work from there. Thanks!
MNHouseRepair is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2011, 08:25 PM   #10
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Atlantic Canada
Posts: 379
Rewards Points: 252
Default

Garage ceiling insulation


No shingle manufacturer, roof inspector, or qualified roofer would ever tell you that it is ok to insulate against the deck without ventilation. Heat causes breakdown of anything in any application, so why are shingles any different?

This is a literature review by the Florida Solar Energy Centre. It does not cover shingle life in much detail, but it does compare traditional vented, unvented, and cathedral vented roofing systems. They all have their strong points but the cathedral vented is the recommended.
http://www.fsec.ucf.edu/en/publicati...CR-1496-05.pdf
shazapple is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2011, 11:39 AM   #11
Exterior Construction
 
Windows on Wash's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Washington DC Metro Area (VA, MD, DC)
Posts: 6,610
Rewards Points: 2,502
Default

Garage ceiling insulation


Quote:
Originally Posted by shazapple View Post
No shingle manufacturer, roof inspector, or qualified roofer would ever tell you that it is ok to insulate against the deck without ventilation. Heat causes breakdown of anything in any application, so why are shingles any different?

This is a literature review by the Florida Solar Energy Centre. It does not cover shingle life in much detail, but it does compare traditional vented, unvented, and cathedral vented roofing systems. They all have their strong points but the cathedral vented is the recommended.
http://www.fsec.ucf.edu/en/publicati...CR-1496-05.pdf
Shazapple,

All of the science and data that is being collected today is in complete contradiction to your assertions.

The idea of ventilated assemblies in Fl and other hot and humid climates was based on very antiquated recommendations and using the shingle manufacturers of build code inspectors as you source of information is flawed at its source.

95% of the shingle cooling happens to the exterior surface via convection.

I have never seen a report, although cited, showing a 32-40° difference between and unvented and vented assembly. As a matter of fact, orientation, color, and material have everything to do with surface temperatures. That being said, Las Vegas shingle roofs that were either well ventilated (1:150) vs. completely sealed only show a 9° difference in surface temperature (well withing guidelines and allowable maximums).

Lets be clear about one thing, attic ventilation is for moisture. It always has been and will continue to do so. Removing moisture to prevent rot, mildew and mold is all it is intended for.

Beside the energy efficiency reductions in a vented assembly (i.e. wind stripping of R-value, more building leakage, ice damns in low slope assemblies), vented assemblies can also entry pathway points for rain and bulk moisture and embers from brush fires.

Don't get me wrong, if you are going to run a sealed attic/hot roof the details need to be correct. The vapor diffusion concerns are more pressing in colder climates.

http://www.thermalsealexperts.com/air03.php

http://www.buildingscience.com/docum...researchreport

If surface temperature really ruined asphalt...wouldn't the roads be crumbling much faster?
Windows on Wash is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Windows on Wash For This Useful Post:
AndyGump (12-03-2011)
Old 12-03-2011, 12:03 PM   #12
Residential Designer
 
AndyGump's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Orange County CA.
Posts: 1,316
Rewards Points: 548
Send a message via Skype™ to AndyGump
Default

Garage ceiling insulation


I have to agree with Windows (wish you would put in a real name) on this.

After doing some research on this whole issue I have come to the conclusion that for most applications an un-vented assembly is usually the best assembly.

Especially here in dry fire prone conditions in So. Cal.

Andy.
AndyGump is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2011, 01:22 PM   #13
Exterior Construction
 
Windows on Wash's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Washington DC Metro Area (VA, MD, DC)
Posts: 6,610
Rewards Points: 2,502
Default

Garage ceiling insulation


Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyGump View Post
I have to agree with Windows (wish you would put in a real name) on this.

After doing some research on this whole issue I have come to the conclusion that for most applications an un-vented assembly is usually the best assembly.

Especially here in dry fire prone conditions in So. Cal.

Andy.
Andy...my name is Eric.
Windows on Wash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2011, 11:24 AM   #14
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Atlantic Canada
Posts: 379
Rewards Points: 252
Default

Garage ceiling insulation


Quote:
Originally Posted by Windows on Wash View Post
Shazapple,
All of the science and data that is being collected today is in complete contradiction to your assertions.
My assertion was that manufacturers require ventilation. The Asphalt Roofing Manufacturers Association has a technical bulletin talking about roof ventilation and how it is required. http://www.asphaltroofing.org/

A couple examples of how improper ventilation will void warranties (with exception to CertainTeed)
http://www.iko.com/warranties/
12. Any damage or distortion caused by inadequate ventilation either at the eaves or on the rooftop of the building. This includes failure of ventilation caused by blocked, non operative or defective vents or any other condition that renders the ventilation system ineffective. Roof system ventilation should meet local building code standards for total vent area. Ventilation must also be distributed evenly between the rooftop and the eaves of the building;
http://www.bpcan.com/documentation-and-tutorials.aspx
(b) the roof and each part of it must be designed and built in accordance with the applicable local and National Building Codes. All roof structures must be provided with thorough ventilation and the deck over which the shingles are installed must meet minimum building code requirements. Where local building codes have specific requirements which differ from National Building Codes, the more stringent requirement must be followed.
http://www.certainteed.com/resource/roofing/warranties
Fiberglass shingles can be non ventilated, and asphalt will only have a 10 year warranty.
http://www.powerhrg.com/_files/files/Roof_Warranty.pdf GAF-ELK
Goes into less detail than the rest, but says warranty does not apply if there is "inadequate attic ventilation"

I do agree that shingle colour, orientation, etc have a lot to do with temperature, but I'm not sure what the maximum guidelines are that you refer to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Windows on Wash View Post
Beside the energy efficiency reductions in a vented assembly (i.e. wind stripping of R-value, more building leakage, ice damns in low slope assemblies), vented assemblies can also entry pathway points for rain and bulk moisture and embers from brush fires.
Please go back and read the article I posted. It clearly shows that a vented catheral ceiling provides better energy efficiency. I'm not sure why ice daming is lumped in your list?

It should be noted that this study refers to tiled roofs, not asphalt, and only models the asphalt shingle temperature. I read the above links and they mostly refer to HVAC being present in the attic space. Yes, it is true if you insulate the deck you will have less HVAC losses because the system is now in the conditioned area. The link I posted agrees with this, but also states that attic air temperatures are lower if you add ventilation above your insulated deck.

Quote:
If surface temperature really ruined asphalt...wouldn't the roads be crumbling much faster?
The asphalt used in shingles is a different type than that used in roads (and the asphalt used in modbit roofing is different still). I realize they recycle shingles for road construction, but they are either used as an aggregate or in a small percentage of the road asphalt mix (5%).
shazapple is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2011, 01:48 PM   #15
Exterior Construction
 
Windows on Wash's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Washington DC Metro Area (VA, MD, DC)
Posts: 6,610
Rewards Points: 2,502
Default

Garage ceiling insulation


Quote:
Originally Posted by shazapple View Post
My assertion was that manufacturers require ventilation. The Asphalt Roofing Manufacturers Association has a technical bulletin talking about roof ventilation and how it is required. http://www.asphaltroofing.org/

Actually you said: No shingle manufacturer, roof inspector, or qualified roofer would ever tell you that it is ok to insulate against the deck without ventilation. Heat causes breakdown of anything in any application, so why are shingles any different?

I was just pointing out that regardless of what the manufacturers require, there is no factual data to indicate that an insulated roof deck kills shingles. Many claimed the world was flat for years but that did not make it correct.

A couple examples of how improper ventilation will void warranties (with exception to CertainTeed)
http://www.iko.com/warranties/
12. Any damage or distortion caused by inadequate ventilation either at the eaves or on the rooftop of the building. This includes failure of ventilation caused by blocked, non operative or defective vents or any other condition that renders the ventilation system ineffective. Roof system ventilation should meet local building code standards for total vent area. Ventilation must also be distributed evenly between the rooftop and the eaves of the building;
http://www.bpcan.com/documentation-and-tutorials.aspx
(b) the roof and each part of it must be designed and built in accordance with the applicable local and National Building Codes. All roof structures must be provided with thorough ventilation and the deck over which the shingles are installed must meet minimum building code requirements. Where local building codes have specific requirements which differ from National Building Codes, the more stringent requirement must be followed.
http://www.certainteed.com/resource/roofing/warranties
Fiberglass shingles can be non ventilated, and asphalt will only have a 10 year warranty.
http://www.powerhrg.com/_files/files/Roof_Warranty.pdf GAF-ELK
Goes into less detail than the rest, but says warranty does not apply if there is "inadequate attic ventilation"

Again, I will concede that shingle manufacturers warranty are fraught with exclusions for ventilation and some of them are well founded if you have uncontrolled moisture migration to the underside of the roof deck and ultimately the shingle. Would anyone really argue that shingle manufactures aren't looking for an out nearly every chance they get? Their claims about ventilation are designed to protect their interests and are not based on what is known to be the truth about insulated and non-vented roof designs.

I do agree that shingle colour, orientation, etc have a lot to do with temperature, but I'm not sure what the maximum guidelines are that you refer to.

The maximum guidelines for temperature per the sheathing manufactures. I don't recall where I read it but their allowable maximums were about 180° and sealed attics did not approach that number in Las Vegas.

Please go back and read the article I posted. It clearly shows that a vented catheral ceiling provides better energy efficiency. I'm not sure why ice daming is lumped in your list?

Do you have a page number for me? The link you posted was 60+ pages.

I lumped in ice damning because the poster lives in MN and if he vents that cathedral ceiling and only puts in an R-13, vented or otherwise, he is going to be driving snow melt like crazy. Best thing going for him in that application would be a steep roof to shed the snow.

Page 8: Side-by-side roof research tests, one with dark gray shingles (solar absorptance of 92%) over a vented attic compared with dark gray shingles over a sealed attic, have shown 9% cooling energy savings for the sealed attic with typical attic duct construction. Tests of vented attics comparing the dark gray shingles with white shingles (solar absorptance of 76%) found savings of 4% for the white shingles. This indicates that combining white shingles with a sealed attic is likely to produce greater
cooling energy savings. In addition, these tests found significantly greater savings (17-23%) for white tile and white metal roofing systems. Measured energy performance savings of 9% have also
been reported in separate field tests for attic radiant barrier systems in monitored homes (Parker, et. al., 2001).


Page 37: Figure 26 summarizes the measured cooling load profiles for the seven homes over the unoccupied monitoring period. Not surprisingly, the control home has the highest consumption (17.0 kWh/day).
The home with the terra cotta barrel tile has a slightly lower use (16.2 kWh/day) for a 5% cooling energy reduction. Next is the home with the white shingles (15.6 kWh/day) – an 8% reduction. The sealed attic comes in with a 12% cooling energy reduction (14.9 kWh/day).


It should be noted that this study refers to tiled roofs, not asphalt, and only models the asphalt shingle temperature. I read the above links and they mostly refer to HVAC being present in the attic space. Yes, it is true if you insulate the deck you will have less HVAC losses because the system is now in the conditioned area. The link I posted agrees with this, but also states that attic air temperatures are lower if you add ventilation above your insulated deck.

The link you posted specifically illustrates that a peak shingle temperature (dark colored shingle) was only 7° and in most cases about 1.3° over the average of the summer. That is well within what is considered acceptable and shingle color and orientation have far greater impacts on shingle temperature. If temperature is that big and issue, they shouldn't sell a dark shingle south of the Mason Dixon Line. These peak differences were measured in Florida for that matter.

I agree that a overdeck vent is the best of both worlds in this case. Complete thermal break and ventilation if any moisture gets through.

The asphalt used in shingles is a different type than that used in roads (and the asphalt used in modbit roofing is different still). I realize they recycle shingles for road construction, but they are either used as an aggregate or in a small percentage of the road asphalt mix (5%).
The long and short is that you claimed heat kills the shingles. Maybe true but only by driving the volatilization of the components. With and average temperature rise (summertime) of only 1.3° in Florida, that is not of any significance and your study indicated that if you modeled it out, it might equate to 11%.

Page 10: Accordingly, if the average shingle temperature was elevated
by 2°F, the shingle life expectancy might be reduced by 11%


Mind you, average temp differences were noted at 1.3°. Just using a simple linear relationship would indicate that at 1.3°, the reduction in shingle life might be 7%.

Page 9: One published reason indicates that attic ventilation keeps shingles from reaching excessively high temperatures and reduces the rate at which oxidation and hydrocarbon volatiles are driven off that make aged shingles become brittle (Terenzio, 1997). The role of temperature versus UV exposure is not well known, although temperature is commonly cited as having a critical role in shingle longevity (Cash and Lyon, 2002). However, experiments shows that ventilation is a lesser factor in resulting shingle temperature than is shingle color or geographic location. Rose (2001) showed that ventilation of a black shingle covered, truss framed roof only reduced temperatures by 2-3% whereas the impact of color was 20 - 30%. FSEC testing at its Flexible Roof Facility (Parker and Sherwin, 1998a) also shows that roof color and reflectivity is a very large effect– and larger than ventilation.

So if color is the larger impact on shingle life, it begs the question again why any roofing manufacturer would sell a dark shingle if they are concerned about shingle life and surface temperatures.

You can do any roof system improperly. I have seen spray foam done wrong just as I have seen vented roof done wrong. My big issue with a vented cathedral ceiling is the sacrificial R-value that is donated to a venting zone. If I were build a home today I would insulate with rigid foam to the top, vented overdeck, and use more traditional insulation materials to the interior with an airtight ceiling.

Windows on Wash is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Garage ManCave Please Help!!! ManCaveMark Building & Construction 7 09-14-2011 03:01 PM
Insulation and Vapor Barrier in Garage DIY_Rob Carpentry 1 09-01-2011 06:46 PM
Garage Attic Insulation Questions H2O Engr Building & Construction 3 10-01-2010 09:00 AM
Unfaced insulation above garage BlueBSH Building & Construction 9 05-31-2010 03:30 PM
Garage Cathedral Ceiling Insulation onecanoe Building & Construction 1 05-01-2008 03:28 PM




Top of Page | View New Posts

Copyright © 2003-2014 Escalate Media. All Rights Reserved.