Go Back   DIY Chatroom Home Improvement Forum > Home Improvement > Insulation

CLICK HERE AND JOIN OUR COMMUNITY TODAY...IT'S FREE!

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 04-05-2011, 11:29 AM   #16
Experienced
 
Jackofall1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Southern Michigan
Posts: 2,822
Rewards Points: 2,000
Default

Fiberglass insulation in basement?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Powerup26 View Post
Sounds like a bunch of bs to me. Everything you listed is a leak hazard. There no way all that isnt leaking by now. Where does it say you cant put fb on a basement wall?? No one was talking about framing,as yes framing should be offset and also done in pressure treated
Firstly it's not a problem with fiberglass per say, its a VB problem, putting plastic on a subgrade basement wall is a no no, especially in the northern climates and shouldn't be done.

Framing with PT is not necessary, the only PT needed is the base plate, if you are protecting against moisture damage by framing a basement with PT you already have a moisture problem or you have created one by putting plastic on the wall.

Mark

__________________
When its all said and done there is usually more said than done
Jackofall1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2011, 11:44 AM   #17
Experienced
 
Jackofall1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Southern Michigan
Posts: 2,822
Rewards Points: 2,000
Default

Fiberglass insulation in basement?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Powerup26 View Post
Sounds like a bunch of bs to me. Everything you listed is a leak hazard. There no way all that isnt leaking by now. Where does it say you cant put fb on a basement wall?? No one was talking about framing,as yes framing should be offset and also done in pressure treated
Offset, what do you mean? an air space between the wall? if so.....not a good idea.

Leaving an air space will create an opportunity for convetion loops which will undoubtedly cause a moiture issue and defeat the little effectiveness of the insulation.

You really should look at the attached

http://www.buildingscience.com/docum...lation-systems

There really is a right and wrong way of doing the job.

Mark
__________________
When its all said and done there is usually more said than done
Jackofall1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2011, 04:14 PM   #18
Home Performance
 
HomeSealed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Milwaukee,WI
Posts: 1,474
Rewards Points: 582
Default

Fiberglass insulation in basement?


Powerup, your use of "fb" is confusing. Are you talking about fiberglass (fg?) or foam board? You can put foam board (XPS) on a foundation wall, you cannot put fiberglass against a foundation wall.... The point of my earlier post examples is that YES, those are all disasters waiting to happen, and so is putting fiberglass directly against a foundation wall. Everything might look fine and dandy after 6 or even 10-15yrs, until you rip it apart for some reason and find a bunch of mold, nasty fg, and deteriorating framing. Then you wonder why your kids have allergies, etc... Please check out the numerous links to buildingscience.com . It explains everything in great detail and is practically irrefutable. Specifically the last link above is perfect for this discussion. Here is one excerpt "Any interior basement insulating wall system must have the
following properties:
• It must be able to dry to the interior should it become wet
since the below grade portion of the wall will not be able to
dry to the exterior during any time of the year. This
precludes an interior polyethylene vapor barrier or any
impermeable interior wall finishes such as vinyl wall
coverings or oil/alkyd/epoxy paint systems.
• The wall assembly must prevent any significant volume of
interior air from reaching the cool foundation wall. Thus it
must have an effective interior air barrier or a method of
elevating the temperature of potential condensing surfaces
(such as rigid insulation installed directly on the interior of
concrete or masonry surfaces).
• Materials in contact with the foundation wall and the
concrete slab must be moisture tolerant; that is the
materials should not support mold growth or deteriorate if
they become wet. However, moisture tolerant materials are
not necessarily capillary resistant. That is, some materials
may tolerate being wet without blocking the passage of
liquid water through the materials. A capillary break must
be placed between these materials and moisture sensitive
materials."

...I'd also highly recommend thorough review of page 13.
__________________
Replacement Windows, doors, siding, roofing, insulation, and certified energy consulting.
www.HomeSealed.com

Last edited by HomeSealed; 04-05-2011 at 04:31 PM. Reason: add
HomeSealed is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2011, 04:39 PM   #19
Home Performance
 
HomeSealed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Milwaukee,WI
Posts: 1,474
Rewards Points: 582
Default

Fiberglass insulation in basement?


The problem is, this is actually a very complicated issue. Groundwater is not the only thing that creates moisture in a basement. Are you familiar with condensation? Are basement walls cold? ..... Cold basement walls, interior moisture, and products that are not resistant to it = problems. Instead of just criticizing the links, why don't you actually read them and learn something... or if you still disagree, perhaps you can articulate why these PHD's who have dedicated their lives and careers to building science are wrong, and you are right.
__________________
Replacement Windows, doors, siding, roofing, insulation, and certified energy consulting.
www.HomeSealed.com

Last edited by Gary in WA; 04-07-2011 at 12:44 AM. Reason: Removed reference name.
HomeSealed is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2011, 04:43 PM   #20
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 951
Rewards Points: 500
Default

Fiberglass insulation in basement?


Quote:
Originally Posted by HomeSealed View Post
GBR's comments and everything on buildingscience.com are right on. This info is consistent among those who know proper procedures.

The one article GBR links says to not leave any air space between the insulation and the foundation wall. Another says that without an air space you'll get mold behind the insulation.

To me, that's inconsistent.

It's great that you know the proper procedures, whatever they are, but for us starting from scratch and reading the articles, there is a lot to puzzle over.
pyper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2011, 04:58 PM   #21
Home Performance
 
HomeSealed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Milwaukee,WI
Posts: 1,474
Rewards Points: 582
Default

Fiberglass insulation in basement?


Quote:
Originally Posted by pyper View Post
The one article GBR links says to not leave any air space between the insulation and the foundation wall. Another says that without an air space you'll get mold behind the insulation.

To me, that's inconsistent.

It's great that you know the proper procedures, whatever they are, but for us starting from scratch and reading the articles, there is a lot to puzzle over.
If you read very carefully it is not inconsistent at all. There are several products and methods discussed. To be fair, these articles are written assuming that the reader has a basic understanding of building science, physics, and construction knowledge. Please don't take that as an insult, I'm just saying that yes it can be difficult for somebody starting from scratch to decipher.... The proper method when using interior insulation is to apply the foam board directly to the foundation wall in order to keep it warmer. You can then add your framing, fg, and sheetrock.
__________________
Replacement Windows, doors, siding, roofing, insulation, and certified energy consulting.
www.HomeSealed.com
HomeSealed is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2011, 05:10 PM   #22
Home Performance
 
HomeSealed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Milwaukee,WI
Posts: 1,474
Rewards Points: 582
Default

Fiberglass insulation in basement?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Powerup26 View Post
Yes condensation can cause mold, thats why you dont use plastic. Dead air space isnt going to cause mold in a wall. Ive never had a mold prob. In my dead space wall areas. You maybe thinking about an attic without proper air movement(venting). Fiberglass is fine attached to the wall this guy is just trying to push a product
It is not "dead air space" unless it is completely sealed, so that is not a valid point. Condensation still occurs with or without the plastic... If you refuse to read the article I guess that's your choice. I just feel sorry for the person that buys your home, or the homeowner who takes your advice, or your clients -- if God-forbid you are a "professional".
... and who are you inferring is trying to "push a product" by the way? Myself or the other professionals who recommend that people inform themselves with a FREE resource such as the website linked above? ... or are you saying that the website itself is trying to push a product, even though they speak of all of the materials in generic terms?
__________________
Replacement Windows, doors, siding, roofing, insulation, and certified energy consulting.
www.HomeSealed.com
HomeSealed is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2011, 06:09 PM   #23
Home Performance
 
HomeSealed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Milwaukee,WI
Posts: 1,474
Rewards Points: 582
Default

Fiberglass insulation in basement?


Okay, seriously, are you just messin with me now? Am I on a hidden camera show or something??? .... I see that your other posts are all about electrical work, so I'll assume that you are an electrician. What if I started posting in the electrical section telling people to do some stuff that is a total fire hazard, and then when you and others show proof of the proper way to do things, I'd just stick to my guns and refuse to even read the evidence... What's that super-old electrical wiring called? Knob and screw, or knob and post, or whatever? Ya, that's what I'd recommend, because I've seen it in 100 yr old homes so it must be good, right? After all, it has lasted that long. That is what fg insulation against a basement wall is. An totally outdated method (that yes was considered correct once upon a time), until far better methods were figured out.... Since you won't go to the link, here is another important section:

"Full Wall Insulation with Foam
Sheathing Covered with Gypsum
Board
Either expanded or extruded polystyrene insulating sheathing
can be attached directly to the foundation wall. Since extruded
polystyrene is more moisture tolerant it should be used if there
is any question about the effectiveness of the external drainage
system (Figure 13).
If additional insulation is desired, cavity insulation can be
installed in a frame wall built interior to the foam insulation
and covered with 0.5 inch gypsum board or other thermal
barrier (Figure 14, Photograph 8 and Photograph 9). If no additional
insulation is desired, furring strips can be attached to the wall
through the foam insulation and gypsum board attached to the
furring strips.
Extruded polystyrene should also be used if an internal
drainage system with an interior drain is installed as shown in
Figure 15. All joints between pieces of foam insulation should be
sealed with mesh tape and mastic to prevent air leakage that
would permit warm moist air to condense on the cold
foundation wall. This approach has proven to be effective as a
retrofit strategy.
Existing concrete wall
2" XPS rigid foam insulation
(unfaced) tape all joints - adhere
to foundation wall
2x3 24" o.c. wood stud wall attached to
floor and floor joists
1/2" gypsum wall board; hold up from floor
1/2" minimum
Capillary break
Remove/replace with new 18" of existing
concrete slab for reconstruction purposes
(2) layers 1/2" plywood - mechancially
fasten first layer to slab; second layer glued/
screwed to first layer
1" XPS rigid foam insulation (unfaced)
tape all joints "
__________________
Replacement Windows, doors, siding, roofing, insulation, and certified energy consulting.
www.HomeSealed.com

Last edited by HomeSealed; 04-05-2011 at 06:11 PM.
HomeSealed is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2011, 06:20 PM   #24
Home Performance
 
HomeSealed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Milwaukee,WI
Posts: 1,474
Rewards Points: 582
Default

Fiberglass insulation in basement?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Powerup26 View Post
I know what dead space is, and I know where its located in my house. I dont build houses, ive picked up on tons of things working in new homes being built by builders. Ive seen fg insul put on basement walls with no prob and guess what the building inspector has never said anything about it. Just plain old fg insul anchored to the foundation. No plastic,no foam board. Haha and the basements were quite warm even the cold months. Im talking about no finished basement here,no walls,heat registers,ect. Just a sheet of insul on the wall. Whats your article say about that??
... and to answer your question, it is once again completely irrelevant to this discussion. Obviously your scenario would create a warmer basement, but that doesn't mean that it wouldn't create other problems... That's my last comment on this. My primary reason for posting on this was so that unknowing consumers would not follow your poor advice, and I think that's been accomplished.
__________________
Replacement Windows, doors, siding, roofing, insulation, and certified energy consulting.
www.HomeSealed.com
HomeSealed is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2011, 07:35 PM   #25
Home Performance
 
HomeSealed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Milwaukee,WI
Posts: 1,474
Rewards Points: 582
Default

Fiberglass insulation in basement?


uuuggghhh... Its been explained multiple times man. Yes a properly waterproofed basement with proper drainage, etc. will seal out water, but there is also moisture produced on the interior of the home. This moisture goes though and around the sheetrock and fiberglass to condensate on cold foundation walls, creating issues. Does that make sense to you at all?? ... It is great that you see all of this stuff done during new home construction, but guess what I do? I'm the guy who comes in 8-10 yrs later and fixes all the crappy, improper work and builder grade materials that are failing. There is an entire industry of mold remediation that exists in large part because of improper building practices. Insulation and ventilation are two crucially important functions in a home, especially in new homes. Guys like the authors of those articles have been studying this stuff for years, and new home construction is just starting to catch on to some of it. Come back 5 years from now and tell me if you are still seeing fg installed directly against foundation walls. Here is a question, why do you think it is necessary to not have wood against the wall, but its ok for fg insulation? ... And no, because I've seen it done before is not a valid answer.
__________________
Replacement Windows, doors, siding, roofing, insulation, and certified energy consulting.
www.HomeSealed.com
HomeSealed is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2011, 10:13 PM   #26
Newbie
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 17
Rewards Points: 10
Default

Fiberglass insulation in basement?


So what's wrong with using mold and mildew resistant insulation and the same with sheetrock? I'm no pro here I just came to this site to share my experiences and read what others have done. Seems like to me everytime you share your experience someone else knocks you down and tells ya you Did It Wrong! Well its my house not anyone else's. Maybe its time to forget about this site. There are a ton of crappy contractors out there that take your money and a ton that are great!!! Just because you did something for 20 years don't make ya pro if your not good at it. As far as your insulation question do what feels right in your gut. Its your house......
Jbyrd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2011, 10:46 PM   #27
Home Performance
 
HomeSealed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Milwaukee,WI
Posts: 1,474
Rewards Points: 582
Default

Fiberglass insulation in basement?


Jbyrd, I am almost speechless. Do what's in your gut? Really? Should a person have no sense of responsibility to the other people who currently live in his/her home or who will in the future?... If you want to do shoddy work on your own home, thats bad enough, but dont come here and give bad advice to people that are trying to research and learn the right way to do things, and then try to argue that its correct. Then when you are proven wrong, whine about it and complain that "someone else knocks you down and tells ya you Did It Wrong!".. Guess what? This is the real world, not elementary school. We don't all get an A for effort. There is a right way and a wrong way to do things... I know very little about plumbing and electrical (even though I've done more of it than most ho's), so guess what? I don't post about it, because I'm not an expert. Please just stop for a second and think about how important your home is as an investment. Do you want to go out of your way to research how to properly complete a project only to receive bad advice from someone who really doesn't know what they are talking about? I'd imagine not. So don't offer it... If there is an area that you have a high level of expertise, then by all means, answer people's questions. If not, just stick to asking them.
__________________
Replacement Windows, doors, siding, roofing, insulation, and certified energy consulting.
www.HomeSealed.com
HomeSealed is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2011, 11:11 PM   #28
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: PA
Posts: 181
Rewards Points: 172
Default

Fiberglass insulation in basement?


HomeSealed.... So I should rip all the framing out and start over? Doubt that's going to happen. Is there anything else I can do along with fiberglass to help? I will be conditioning the air, and If I have to, I can run the dehumidifier too. Now, after reading that article, it does say to keep the basement air from reaching the wall. So if I seal any and all cracks to prevent this, will I be ok? But the article also says the wall has to be able to dry to the interior. So sealing it all up tight would also prevent this.
nateshirk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2011, 11:29 PM   #29
Home Performance
 
HomeSealed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Milwaukee,WI
Posts: 1,474
Rewards Points: 582
Default

Fiberglass insulation in basement?


Quote:
Originally Posted by nateshirk View Post
HomeSealed.... So I should rip all the framing out and start over? Doubt that's going to happen. Is there anything else I can do along with fiberglass to help? I will be conditioning the air, and If I have to, I can run the dehumidifier too. Now, after reading that article, it does say to keep the basement air from reaching the wall. So if I seal any and all cracks to prevent this, will I be ok? But the article also says the wall has to be able to dry to the interior. So sealing it all up tight would also prevent this.
Ideally, as described, you want foam board tight against the foundation wall, followed by the framing, fg, etc.... IF you have the exterior of the foundation very well sealed and IF you are vigilant about controlling the RH of the interior (running a dehumidifier, etc), you should be ok... That being said, in my own home, I'd redo it unless everything ( including sheetrock, etc) had already been completed. If its already done, maybe you keep a very watchful eye and cross your fingers.
__________________
Replacement Windows, doors, siding, roofing, insulation, and certified energy consulting.
www.HomeSealed.com
HomeSealed is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2011, 01:23 AM   #30
Experienced
 
Jackofall1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Southern Michigan
Posts: 2,822
Rewards Points: 2,000
Default

Fiberglass insulation in basement?


Quote:
Originally Posted by nateshirk View Post
HomeSealed.... So I should rip all the framing out and start over? Doubt that's going to happen. Is there anything else I can do along with fiberglass to help? I will be conditioning the air, and If I have to, I can run the dehumidifier too. Now, after reading that article, it does say to keep the basement air from reaching the wall. So if I seal any and all cracks to prevent this, will I be ok? But the article also says the wall has to be able to dry to the interior. So sealing it all up tight would also prevent this.
Ok the framing is done and you said its an inch away from the wall, get yourself some 1" XPS slice it to fit between the wall studs, or remove 3 studs so whole sheets can fit in and slide them down the length, making it as tight as possible to each other. I know tough work, but the peace of mind will be worth it.

Then insulate with non-faced insulation, then cover with drywall or what ever you were planning on doing.

Or you could listen to the person who knows what he has seen and is not open to the plethera of information spelled out in this very thread.

electrician bucking the experience of a business owner who works on solving the problems produced by doing things incorrectly, Phd's on the subject of building science, a couple of mechanical engineers.....hmmmm, who do you think really has the right information here.

Good luck on your project, please post some progress pic's as you proceed down th epath.

Mark

__________________
When its all said and done there is usually more said than done

Last edited by Gary in WA; 04-07-2011 at 12:49 AM. Reason: Removed name calling as per site rules
Jackofall1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Basement wall insulation dandw12786 Building & Construction 4 07-15-2010 02:11 PM
Finished Basement Insulation cdhen14 Building & Construction 0 06-03-2010 06:43 AM
Same old Question basement Insulation advice rp92285 Building & Construction 2 02-05-2010 12:01 PM
Basement Insulation question tophercole Building & Construction 0 11-19-2009 10:01 AM
Installing new insulation in my basement and removing the old moldy insulation. Fixitgeorge Remodeling 3 10-17-2006 09:33 PM




Top of Page | View New Posts

Copyright © 2003-2014 Escalate Media. All Rights Reserved.