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Old 10-02-2012, 07:13 PM   #31
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Attic insulation in MA - Strange problem


If the inspector signed off on it, that is all you really need.

I do not interpret the ignition barrier to only be relevant if there is an identifiable ignition source. The fact that there is any power in the attic would qualify it in my eyes but the inspector is who makes the call.

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Old 10-02-2012, 07:17 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Windows on Wash View Post
If the inspector signed off on it, that is all you really need.

I do not interpret the ignition barrier to only be relevant if there is an identifiable ignition source. The fact that there is any power in the attic would qualify it in my eyes but the inspector is who makes the call.
It sounds like you sell the product (fire resistant paint) as part of your services, so I'm surprised the UV rays coming through my gable windows don't qualify it for you.

ignition barrier is only for for an identifiable ignition source. I called some friends that are contractors and a two plumbers that install units and they all said the same thing that if it has a pilot it's required to be fire resistant only around the unit and ceiling, not the whole room.

No identifiable ignition = not required

If they want to come back and make a big deal about it on final inspection, I'll have to take it to the state inspector.
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Old 10-02-2012, 07:32 PM   #33
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Attic insulation in MA - Strange problem


From 2009 International Energy Conservation Code, which is used in Massachusetts

101.4.3 Additions, alterations, renovations or repairs.
Additions, alterations, renovations or repairs to an existing building, building system or portion thereof shall conform to the provisions of this code as they relate to new construction without requiring the unaltered portion(s) of the existing building or building system to comply with this code. Additions, alterations, renovations or repairs shall not create an unsafe or hazardous condition or overload existing building systems. An addition shall be deemed to comply with this code if the addition alone complies or if the existing building and addition comply with this code as a single building.

Exception:
The following need not comply provided the energy use of the building is not increased:
1. Storm windows installed over existing fenestration.
2. Glass only replacements in an existing sash and frame.
3. Existing ceiling, wall or floor cavities exposed during construction provided that these cavities are filled with insulation.
4. Construction where the existing roof, wall or floor cavity is not exposed.
5. Reroofing for roofs where neither the sheathing nor the insulation is exposed. Roofs without insulation in the cavity and where the sheathing or insulation is exposed during reroofing shall be insulated either above or below the sheathing.
6. Replacement of existing doors that separate
conditioned space from the exterior shall not require the installation of a vestibule or revolving door, provided, however, that an existing vestibule that separates a conditioned space from the exterior shall not be removed,
7. Alterations that replace less than 50 percent of the luminaires in a space, provided that such alterations do not increase the installed interior lighting power.
8. Alterations that replace only the bulb and ballast within the existing luminaires in a space provided that the
alteration does not increase the installed interior lighting power.

if you did not reroof, and the ceiling assembly had insulation ......

upgrades can be required when your renovation costs 50% of the home's valuation (usually that use the assessor's). next time have an affidavit from yourself and the builder in regards to cost, not merely a contract.

I agree about no thermal protection needed.

with that said, you'll enjoy the insulation, you'll be glad you did, not the reason you had to
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Old 10-02-2012, 07:33 PM   #34
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Attic insulation in MA - Strange problem


3. Existing ceiling, wall or floor cavities exposed during construction provided that these cavities are filled with insulation.

The ceiling assembly never had insulation.
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Old 10-02-2012, 07:38 PM   #35
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upgrades can be required when your renovation costs 50% of the home's valuation (usually that use the assessor's). next time have an affidavit from yourself and the builder in regards to cost, not merely a contract.

I agree about no thermal protection needed.

with that said, you'll enjoy the insulation, you'll be glad you did, not the reason you had to
I wish I could find the [bold] in the code. I'm not even close to 50% of the assessed value. House value is 350k, renovation was about 80k. (real rough numbers). I was the "builder" and subbed out the individual jobs. I'm on my own building permit.

As for enjoying my insulation.....it's the little things in life that make me smile. At least now i can fart in my attic and smell it 3 days later.
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Old 10-02-2012, 10:29 PM   #36
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Attic insulation in MA - Strange problem


Is this your foam? pp. 2: http://www.icc-es.org/reports/pdf_fi...S/ESR-1826.pdf

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Old 10-02-2012, 11:34 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Squished View Post
It sounds like you sell the product (fire resistant paint) as part of your services, so I'm surprised the UV rays coming through my gable windows don't qualify it for you.

ignition barrier is only for for an identifiable ignition source. I called some friends that are contractors and a two plumbers that install units and they all said the same thing that if it has a pilot it's required to be fire resistant only around the unit and ceiling, not the whole room.

No identifiable ignition = not required

If they want to come back and make a big deal about it on final inspection, I'll have to take it to the state inspector.
Ha, Ha!

Don't sell it as I am not a SPF contractor. If the inspector signed off on it, I guess that is the final say. That being said, the code seems to read differently to me. I know the codes are behind but I always try to inform folks to defer to the most conservative side of things.

The most recent ICC-ES (June 2012) code (AC377) http://www.icc-es.org/criteria/dsp.cfm?ac_code=AC377 reads as follows:

3.4.4 Spray-applied Foam Plastic Used in Attics:
Within an attic where entry is made only for service of
utilities, spray-applied foam plastics shall be protected as
set forth in IBC Section 2603.4.1.6, IRC Section R316.5.3,
2006 IRC Section R314.5.3 or Exception 4 of UBC Section
2602.4, as applicable. Utilities include, but are not limited
to, mechanical equipment, electrical wiring, fans,
plumbing, gas or electric hot water heaters, and gas or
electric furnaces.

As an alternative, the prescriptive ignition barrier
shall not be required when satisfactory testing is
conducted with exposed foam plastic insulation or with a
foam plastic insulation system, such as foam plastic
insulation covered by a coating, in accordance with either
Appendix A1.0 or Appendix X of this criteria.


If the foam otherwise passed the Appendix X criteria, it should have been indicated. If you used Icynene as GBR linked to, the code reads as such:

4.4.2.1 Attics: In attics Icynene LD-C-50™ foam plastic
insulation may be spray-applied to the underside of the
roof sheathing and/or rafters, as described in this section.
The thickness of the foam plastic applied to the underside
of the roof sheathing must not exceed 14 inches (356 mm).
The thickness of the spray foam insulation applied
to vertical wall surfaces must not exceed 5.5 inches
(140 mm). The insulation must be covered on all surfaces
with one of the coatings described in Section 3.5. The
coating must be applied over the insulation in accordance
with the coating manufacturer’s instructions and this report.

3.5 Intumescent Coatings


The jury is out on Intumescents and if they even work which why we normally recommend covering with drywall. The intumescent may have served another purpose in this case as vapor retarder level. Open cell SPF is pretty permeable and you can still get rot on framing and decking (less likely on the decking because of the foam installed) with diffused moisture. CC SPFs are preferable in colder climates for this reason.
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Old 10-03-2012, 03:59 AM   #38
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Attic insulation in MA - Strange problem


Hmm, the 2012 code and 2009 code definitely read differently. When he was at my house he had the 2009 book in his hand.

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