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Old 03-18-2013, 08:17 PM   #16
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And here's what I'm dealing with...



The paper backing is darker than it should be, so there is no doubt moisture is getting trapped in there. It looks like it's an overall damp, rather than coming from one spot, leading me to believe it's exactly like Gary said - any moisture was getting trapped in the plastic, dripping down, then slowly wicking up.

Here's another, close up pic...



What I'm seeing is the moisture marks line up with where the insulation meets the plastic. Hopefully this means no big leaks in the actual wall, so all I have to do is properly insulate it and re do the drywall. Except for the fact that I found several of the studs are completely loose.


By the way, if you look at the bottom right corner of the top pic, you'll see they ran out of insulation the last half foot or so...so they rolled up bubble wrap and stuffed that in there!!

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Old 03-18-2013, 11:47 PM   #17
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Where are you located?

Gary
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Old 03-19-2013, 10:23 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Gary in WA View Post
Where are you located?

Gary
Southwest Ohio. Cold and dry winters, hot and humid summers. So I run the gamut each year...heat trying to get in, heat trying to get out.

I removed the plastic sheet and insulation last night. It wasn't overpowering, but it definitely smelled musty. The good news is the block wall itself looked great. No signs of water coming in, no leaks, no cracks, no black spots. The only signs of moisture were between the plastic sheet and the insulation.

However most of the studs were loose and flopped around. I plan on placing a PT bottom plate and redoing all that.
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Old 03-20-2013, 12:08 AM   #19
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The new science is foamboard on the basement walls to control condensation on the cold concrete. Here is a link, very detailed, just find Wall #3, (I think), and compare that poly one to the next one with foamboard. Then toward the end, it compares the moisture problems, cost, R-value, etc; http://www.buildingscience.com/docum...study-analysis

The f.b controls the warmth of the cavity to prevent condensation on the fiberglass. It also air seals the cold concrete from humid basement air condensing there. Cincinnati, lowest temps. 3 months average-is 24*F; http://www.weather.com/weather/wxcli...graph/USOH0188

With no f.b., insulation (f.g. or Roxul) in frame wall next to it only, the concrete temp is about 26*F =18% RH any higher RH will condense if room air is 70*F.

1"(R-5 XPS) f.b. on concrete, frame wall w. f.g.=37*F = 30% RH

2" XPS (code required; http://publicecodes.cyberregs.com/ic..._11_sec002.htm) plus frame wall, f.g.- 44*F concrete at room safe RH of 39%. Depends on how much you want to run a dehumidifier or want the "diaper" smell from poly. Can omit the f.g. for code R-10 foam (continuous) see footnote, only but may have convective loops in a bare wall...

Gary
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Old 03-20-2013, 09:55 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Gary in WA View Post
The new science is foamboard on the basement walls to control condensation on the cold concrete. Here is a link, very detailed, just find Wall #3, (I think), and compare that poly one to the next one with foamboard. Then toward the end, it compares the moisture problems, cost, R-value, etc; http://www.buildingscience.com/docum...study-analysis

The f.b controls the warmth of the cavity to prevent condensation on the fiberglass. It also air seals the cold concrete from humid basement air condensing there. Cincinnati, lowest temps. 3 months average-is 24*F; http://www.weather.com/weather/wxcli...graph/USOH0188

With no f.b., insulation (f.g. or Roxul) in frame wall next to it only, the concrete temp is about 26*F =18% RH any higher RH will condense if room air is 70*F.

1"(R-5 XPS) f.b. on concrete, frame wall w. f.g.=37*F = 30% RH

2" XPS (code required; http://publicecodes.cyberregs.com/ic..._11_sec002.htm) plus frame wall, f.g.- 44*F concrete at room safe RH of 39%. Depends on how much you want to run a dehumidifier or want the "diaper" smell from poly. Can omit the f.g. for code R-10 foam (continuous) see footnote, only but may have convective loops in a bare wall...

Gary
EXCELLENT! This is exactly what I was looking for last night - a full comparison of many different insulation methods, including cost as well as effectiveness! Huge thanks!!!

The only method I don't see listed is using just 2" XPS. Is that not a viable option?
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Old 03-21-2013, 01:59 PM   #21
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Sure, that will work, fig. 2; http://www.buildingscience.com/docum...g-your-basment

Did you read page 4 about basement floors/condensation? You will be fine as your concrete slab is about 10*F warmer 6' below grade; http://www.epa.gov/athens/learn2mode...enrys_map.html

Gary
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Old 03-21-2013, 02:36 PM   #22
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I'm late to the party. I agree with the advice given.

Regarding the foam panels against the wall, I used 2" and taped the butting edges with "red" tape. Also, I cut blockings of 2" foam to fit into joist ends and sealed around edges with spray foam. Then the batt insulation. Perhaps overkill, but before the styrofoam, I laid in house wrap on the walls and into the joist ends, extending to the bottom plate of stud wall, sealing laps and edges with red tape. I used dabs of adhesive or spray foam to temporarily hold in place before putting on panels. The house wrap is cheap and goes on quickly, and it breathes, and does not let moisture pass.

Ted
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Old 03-21-2013, 11:33 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Gary in WA View Post
Sure, that will work, fig. 2; http://www.buildingscience.com/docum...g-your-basment

Did you read page 4 about basement floors/condensation? You will be fine as your concrete slab is about 10*F warmer 6' below grade; http://www.epa.gov/athens/learn2mode...enrys_map.html

Gary
I did see the part about insulating the floors but I'll have to pass on that. My budget is limited and the floor has a very slight curve to it, so I'm planning on putting in carpet. But it looks like standard fiberglass batt isn't so expensive, so I should be able to do XPS plus batt. But will I get enough benefit from the added batt to justify the cost?

I also saw where they recommended paperless drywall. From what I've read, you have to skim coat that stuff, and if I'm looking at doing all the exterior facing walls, that sounds like way too much skim coating.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ellins View Post
I'm late to the party. I agree with the advice given.

Regarding the foam panels against the wall, I used 2" and taped the butting edges with "red" tape. Also, I cut blockings of 2" foam to fit into joist ends and sealed around edges with spray foam. Then the batt insulation. Perhaps overkill, but before the styrofoam, I laid in house wrap on the walls and into the joist ends, extending to the bottom plate of stud wall, sealing laps and edges with red tape. I used dabs of adhesive or spray foam to temporarily hold in place before putting on panels. The house wrap is cheap and goes on quickly, and it breathes, and does not let moisture pass.

Ted
That's actually the next part I need to tackle - around the sill and joist ends. Spray foam sounds like a good idea for what I'm facing. I'll post some pics...

Last edited by spaceman spif; 03-21-2013 at 11:43 PM.
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Old 03-21-2013, 11:42 PM   #24
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Here's a pic of the sill plate. You can see it extends about 1/2" beyond the wall, and there are a few small gaps here and there between the sill plate and the block wall. I'm tearing down the existing studs and putting up new ones. A few questions:

Should I bother caulking in the gaps? I felt no air passing through the gaps, and there are plenty of other open spaces around there, so would it make a difference?

I want to place XPS all the way up the wall, but I also want to put up a stud wall outside the XPS. I plan on nailing PT 2x4 into the floor for the bottom plate, but how do I attach the top plate? If I run a screw through the XPS and into the sill, won't that create a path for moisture?
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Old 03-22-2013, 05:19 PM   #25
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Here is one similar, I just answered: basement renovation 2x4 vs 2x3 and using XPS

I would caulk them. I would use 3/4" plywood for a fire-stop/top plate, then build your wall on p.t. on 1" XPS for a thermal/air/capillary break; http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/...-building-code

http://publicecodes.citation.com/ico...002_par018.htm

ADA the drywall: http://www.buildingscience.com/docum...wall-approach/

Housewrap does not stop water vapor, Tyvek (58 perms), Typar (16 perms?) very vapor open. Works good on exterior wall or under joists in crawlspace w. f.g. or on attic fiberglass insulation, and can be an air barrier-if perfectly taped, though.

Gary
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Old 03-24-2013, 09:29 PM   #26
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I'm holding up the vapor barrier in the pic, so at least they did that. And no, that's not PT on the floor. When did they start using PT for basement framing? My guess is after my house was built. (Only asking out of curiosity as to when the practice started. I'm aware PT should be used)

Anyways, this is turning out like every other project I've ever done. It goes from a small, simple job to rebuilding the entire house.

Am I really looking at having to reframe all my basement exterior facing walls? Am I looking at the expense of waterproofing?

:sob:

Spaceman- late reply, but re; your question of when did they start using PT on the floor for basement framing. In our case, our North Carolina home was built in 1970, and the semi-finished basement rooms' bottom-plates (wall bottoms) are pressure-treated. So in one case, in one state, PT was being used in the early 70's as bottom plating. Mileage may vary, but thought I'd chime in since I'm now drywalling the old framing (which was originally covered with wood paneling). Mike
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Old 07-03-2013, 07:20 PM   #27
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Dredging up an old thread...I had an egress window installed and no leaks so I'm ready to start insulating the basement walls.

I'm planning on using 1-2" XPS sheets glued to the wall and then put studs in front of that. What I'm wondering is should I place the bottom plate up against the wall and run the XPS sheets down to the bottom plate? Or should I have the XPS sheets run all the way from top to bottom and then put a bottom plate in front of the sheets?
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Old 07-08-2013, 10:27 AM   #28
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Where's Gary in WA when you need him???
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Old 07-08-2013, 12:51 PM   #29
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Dredging up an old thread...I had an egress window installed and no leaks so I'm ready to start insulating the basement walls.

I'm planning on using 1-2" XPS sheets glued to the wall and then put studs in front of that. What I'm wondering is should I place the bottom plate up against the wall and run the XPS sheets down to the bottom plate? Or should I have the XPS sheets run all the way from top to bottom and then put a bottom plate in front of the sheets?
Bottom plate in front of XPS.

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